SFA_Claire Wasserman: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

SFA_Claire Wasserman: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Missy Modell:
Welcome to Sorry for Apologizing. I'm your host, Missy Modell: activist, strategist, and recovering chronic apologizer. In this podcast, we'll explore all of the ways women have been conditioned by society to play small. Whether it's being expected to have children, tolerate chronic pain, or accept gender inequities from orgasms to paychecks. This season, we'll work to challenge the cultural beliefs that brought us here and discuss all of the reasons why we should be asking for forgiveness rather than permission. It is time to stop apologizing.

Missy Modell:
As women, we've been led to believe that we're incapable of being financially intelligent. We're told we're bad with money. We're frivolous spenders, unable to invest or pay off debt. Well, then we begin to internalize this and think we're actually genetically bad with money, and many women wind up not even seeking out this information out of insecurity, and this just increases the gender gap in financial literacy. I really relate to this. I've been on my own very intense money journey over the past few years, especially as an entrepreneur who never learned anything about money growing up. So there's a major learning curve. Literally, why is this not spoken about in schools? That's another episode. But truly, nothing is more empowering than being in charge of your finances, and the first step is taking that first step learning about it. On today's episode, we have Claire Wasserman, who is an educator, author, and founder of Ladies Get Paid, a platform, global community and book that helps women earn more and live better. Claire, welcome to the show.

Claire Wasserman:
Hey, thanks for having me.

Missy Modell:
I'm genuinely so excited to have you on because I've been on my own personal financial journey. I grew up where I didn't learn about money and managing finances, and it's kind of at a moment where it's all catching up to me, and feeling behind. So I just thought, as we talk about women and the ways in which society keeps us small, there's no better conversation to have than as it relates to money.

Claire Wasserman:
Yes. And by the way, me too, I did not talk about money and growing up. No formal or informal financial education at all. I couldn't tell you what I learned in school, but I wish it was financial education.

Missy Modell:
Yeah. I mean, I think on another note, it should definitely be part of our curriculum in high school.

Claire Wasserman:
Oh, for sure. Absolutely. Because how else do we all learn? It's usually the hard way, right? It's making mistakes. It's getting into debt. There's so much emotional shame piled on top of it, and it's also very intimidating. There's a lot of acronyms. It's not easy, but it's learnable, and nobody comes out of the womb knowing this stuff.

Missy Modell:
No, we don't. And I also love that it's Ladies Get Paid. I just think it's so great.

Claire Wasserman:
That was, yeah. And you know what's even better? When you come up with a name and there's, the URL is available for $12.

Missy Modell:
Wow. Unheard of, that is very exciting. I think also, as women, we're just from a young age taught to believe that we are not good with money, which I think is such an important part of the conversation. We're frivolous spenders. And then, as we get older, we don't invest as early, we don't know how to pay off debt, or we're unable to pay off debt. So I kind of want to just dive right in if that works for you. So finance wasn't something you spoke about growing up. So do you feel that there is this expectation as women to be less focused on finances?

Claire Wasserman:
I think it all starts with representation, because that's the first subconscious ways that we can imagine ourselves in our lives, right? So you don't look like you in a certain position, it's hard to think that you could become that. And the vast majority of people in finance are men from whether it's, you know, your accountant, your ... accountant, or, you know, people who, you know are the traders on the floor, right? And so there's already, from an industry standpoint, intimidation when it comes to that. There's also the expectation, or there had been in at least, you know, middle-upper-class families, that men would be the primary breadwinner. That's, of course, changing. But how do we learn? It's usually from what's modeled before us. So if you grew up in a household where your mom didn't work or do the finances, you might just assume, all right, I'm not going to need to know those skills either. And it's really unfortunate, but 56% of married women leave investment and long-term financial planning decisions to their husbands, okay? And we also don't, you know, invest in retirement or retirement funds as much as men, which is doubly unfortunate because we actually live longer. So whether or not we don't see ourselves modeled and we're intimidated by that, and it's hard to imagine ourselves, you know, going into the field, or participating in the field, or the examples that were set by our mothers. We also, though, have seen our mothers potentially learn the hard way. There's a lot of women who've come to the Ladies Get Paid community who say, I've learned from my mom that the best thing I could do was be independent financially, is to never rely on a man, to always have your own nest egg, to not bury my head in the sand. And that was because they watched whether the mother went through a divorce or whatever. So it's definitely changing, Gen Z for sure, is a lot more savvy. They might, I'm 36, so you know, if you had somebody who was maybe ten years younger, they might look at you and go, of course, there's an expectation for women to be as savvy as men. But in my millennial experience, I find it's a lot of women, when they turn 30, they realize, oh, crap, I got to get my, you know, I didn't know this stuff. And yeah, perhaps there was the default of, well, my, the, my husband will take care of me because he'll make more money. The wage gap. Yeah, he might, but yikes. Let's not ever rely on somebody to take care of ourselves.

Missy Modell:
And it wasn't that long ago when the Equal Credit Opportunity Act was signed into law. 1974, women weren't even able to apply for a credit card, or open a bank account, or even take out a mortgage without their husband's permission. So if they're a single woman, what do you do in that circumstance, right?

Claire Wasserman:
Yeah. And there's a trickle-down effect, right? So like, yeah, the law might change, but then it takes time for the mentality to shift again of more independence, less reliance. We also carry more debt, by the way. And especially black women carry the most student debt, okay? So we're already starting our careers saddled with a deficit, okay, on top of making less, on top of already being, you know, not investing. Which, by the way, if you don't have any money at all, then of course you're not going to invest. So there's a little bit of a chicken and the egg there. I think it really just begins with knowing that it's learnable, okay? Anyone can do this. Start by self-education, then join a community. Recognize that you're not alone. Don't be afraid to ask the, quote dumb questions, because when you do, you're doing a favor for somebody else. Everybody has these questions, or at least did at some point. And what's so wonderful about women, I find, is that we really like to help each other. We're very collaborative. So I just want to get women talking more about money and ambition, because men have done that anyway, like they're all trading stock tips, right? But I think we can become so good at this because we are just inherently, again, communicators and collaborators and community builders, right? So we can take all of that energy and just direct it towards building wealth. My gosh, I mean, more for me, by the way, does not mean less for you. If I tell you how I got a raise and how we're raising our prices and we're making a lot of money as a business, don't think of that as bragging. I think about that as inspiring.

Missy Modell:
Absolutely. And I'm just so curious, how did you even get into this? So what was the first resource you picked up, or what was the first question you had that kind of led you to believe, oh my God, I need to get educated?

Claire Wasserman:
So it started, long story short, I had a pretty sexist experience that just startled me awake to feminism in general, and I started doing research around gap and was searching for something tangible, you know, beyond kind of quitting my job and being an activist. How could I do something on Monday that might help this frickin wage gap, right? Because I kind of pinpointed that as, if I had to make one change to help women, it would be economic power. And it wasn't until a friend came to me who said that she realized that she was not charging as much as her male counterparts. She was a freelance art director, very talented, and for her, it was both lack of information, she didn't know what to charge or where to go to talk about it. But second, and this is the part I was most interested in, why did she immediately think she should charge less? Like the worthiness part, so it's this dual thing of it's not just information, but it's also how you feel about the information. My aha moment was, I may not be able to close the wage gap on a policy level, like that for me, instinctually didn't feel right, but as an individual, I could help women negotiate their salaries, or I could at least start the conversation around it, getting women to share how much they make. And that was a place at least, you know, a first step. And the director of marketing for a company called WorkingNotWorking.com, which helps connect freelancers for work in advertising, tech, and design, and had done something similar to that before. So I had amassed a very large network, a professional network, and had had this really interesting bird's eye view of hiring. So I want to be clear, I'm not a personal finance expert. I consider myself more of a career coach that just started in salary negotiation as a point of interest. And then, I mean, you could teach somebody to make more money, but then what do you do with the money?

Missy Modell:
Exactly.

Claire Wasserman:
Like it's all holistic, so it's fascinating. And it's not just your work and not just your money. I mean, it's your life, and it's your generational, it's the generations after you that are going to be impacted by the decisions you make today with your career and your money.

Missy Modell:
And it's mindset, I feel like how you approach work is how you approach relationships, friendships, your personal life, your connection with yourself. So if you think you're worthy of, not asking for a raise, how does that manifest in other elements of your life? I'm sure that word comes up a lot for you.

Claire Wasserman:
I mean, I've had women who, you know, they'll come and join because they're having, you know, they find out they're not getting paid as much as somebody else at their office or whatever. And then by the end of it, they're like breaking up with their boyfriends, right? Like, yes. Well, it's because you raise the standards for yourself. You're like, all right, I deserve better and more. And then all of a sudden, they're like, well, not just there in that part of my life. How about in that part? But for a long time, I really did think it was lack of information that people had. Like, if we could just teach them, Here's why investing is important. Here's where to invest, here's how to invest, that people would do it. And I was finding in the community that they were saying they were excited, and then they weren't following through. And it was also seeing it, even in my own life, where I wasn't like investing the way that I should be. And I went and I got my master's certificate, specifically in behavioral finance and financial psychology, because that often was the roadblock. It was a scarcity mindset. If you felt like you didn't have enough money to invest, you wouldn't invest even if the numbers were there. So I, and just also looking at my own personal interests, I'm actually not even really driven by money. My wife and co-founder definitely is, like she's the embodiment of like a traditional Ladies Get Paid person. She actually started ... I'm really here more as the how to just make you feel worthy of it, right? And if you have roadblocks, to be able to examine it in a more holistic way, because I do find a lot of us, we learn these things, but we don't implement and then we self-blame. I'm, I should know this. Why am I not doing it? There's a lot of layers to it.

Missy Modell:
And what is a question we can ask as a gut check? What if we don't even know we're going through life with a scarcity mindset? What's kind of a plug in we can use to kind of assess our current state?

Claire Wasserman:
I mean, I think if there's ever any resistance in your life to something, whether you're not doing a thing that you know instinctually you should or you feel paralyzed, you can't make a decision, or there's like a ickiness, like really getting in touch with your instinct and intuition is so crucial. And then just trying to say to yourself, can I remember a time, other times when this has come up? I mean, this is where the sort of deep therapy work comes in, right? My joke is buy the Ladies Get Paid book, but also get a therapist because it's often the unraveling of the memories. Where does this begin, right? What is at the core of this? And then now, when does it get triggered, and is there an alternative way to look at it? And also something actionable I can do in the moment to remember that I am older now and the money could be, by the way, like $10 that you put in the investing. Like, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, a lot of times we look at this stuff in a binary like, you can only do something if you're rich, and that's just not true.

Missy Modell:
Yeah, it's not. And I think that's what stumps people. And I'm certainly an all-or-nothing person. I feel like if I can't buy the whole thing or if I can't do it all, then I love that, by the way, that's an amazing water bottle.

Claire Wasserman:
It's a game changer, I know, here.

Missy Modell:
I need that.

Claire Wasserman:
Top purchases in my life. It's a $15 water bottle. See, you don't have to have much money to improve your quality of life.

Missy Modell:
Link it, we'll link it. You have to send me it because I genuinely am inspired by that. So you also just went on a pretty important and are going through a big financial journey life journey. So I'd love to hear from you because that kind of embodies everything that you've kind of led up to in this moment, right?

Claire Wasserman:
Oh, yes. So I, so I'm pregnant and.

Missy Modell:
Congratulations.

Claire Wasserman:
Thank you. It's not like, I couldn't just snap my fingers and get pregnant because I'm married to a woman. So there are a lot of steps and expensive steps that are involved from, you know, getting the donor, but you don't just, like, pay for the donor, you have to like, pay for storage, you know, for the donor sperm. They recommend a certain number of vials. If you want to have more than one kid and you know, you don't know if you're going to use them like it's, a lot of it is sort of guesstimating with your wallet. And by the way, I wrote an article about the financial implications of getting pregnant when you're a lesbian. And we can link to that, go through in detail, and I actually interviewed the head of the Cryobank because sperm has, the cost of sperm has gone up. So I just wanted to understand from their end, like why is this so expensive, blah blah blah. Then there's IUI versus IVF. I froze my eggs. We never ended up having to use them, but.

Missy Modell:
Oh really? Oh wait, go into that for a sec. How?

Claire Wasserman:
So, well I, so I froze my eggs.

Missy Modell:
I did too, by the way. I've done a lot of content around that.

Claire Wasserman:
Yeah, and did content too. And in full disclosure, it was in a partnership with Extend Fertility, so they waived the fee of freezing my eggs in exchange for content creation. So I was just like to, you know, this stuff is all very expensive, and I've been fortunate that I can leverage my platform and use education and also help my family's wallet. And I froze my eggs at 30, at age 32, and then at age 36 started the process of getting pregnant, but decided not, we would only use the frozen eggs if we were going to do IVF. And the recommendation for us was to not start with IVF, but rather IUI, intrauterine insertion, which is basically just sex with the doctor. Like it's, just a more precise, timed turkey baster method, okay? And it's lower cost, right? And, you know, it's just, you take some fertility drugs, of course, those costs money too. But it took to the third try for it to work, and we only had bought so many vials of sperm. We didn't buy as many as they had recommended. We just felt it was too expensive, and we wanted to gamble a little bit. And partly the reason we wanted we were okay with gambling is because we knew by the fourth vial, fourth try, if the IUI didn't work, we would do IVF, and I'd already frozen my eggs. So that's half the process, or a huge part of the process of IVF was done and actually paid for, you know, which was really nice. And we only needed one vial of sperm for all of the eggs that had been frozen, right? That's, versus IUI, they, you have one vial, and you hope something sticks. But with IVF, it's so precise you only actually need one vial, but you don't know any of this stuff until you start going through it, right? Like there were no classes on this. This was all conversation and calculations made, you know, between my wife and I, between the doctor talking to other people who'd gone through it. It's such a personal decision, so therefore, there's not a right or wrong way to do it. But I think knowing options are really, you know, that's good to know, right? And having a community of other people who are like, I've been there. You know, will this work? Because every time we did IUI, you know, it was like, all right, $2,000, you know, and then nothing. And of course, they tell you, please don't get stressed. Like, you know, it's like, the more stressed and anxious you are, the less likely it will work.

Missy Modell:
And the more likely you will be stressed when they tell you that.

Claire Wasserman:
It went up on my Lexapro, that was great. So then we got the two-for-one fertility deal, meaning I got twins, so.

Missy Modell:
Oh my god.

Claire Wasserman:
Although the real full story is I got triplets and one of them did not develop.

Missy Modell:
Oh my god.

Claire Wasserman:
But of course, there was that moment in the first ultrasound where she goes, so there's three. We see our lives and our bank accounts like flashed before us. It's like three was not the number that we, that was not in our budgeting or our life vision. That's not on the vision board and not three at once, but it, one never developed and it just, it's fine. We're happy about it. We're good.

Missy Modell:
Did you mourn it, or are you? You just felt zero attachment.

Claire Wasserman:
I felt, I felt sorry, it was just a bunch of cells. It's not.

Missy Modell:
Yeah.

Claire Wasserman:
I felt sad. It's like, at first, I was like, no, no, no, no, no. And then they're like, it's not developing. And I was like, oh, I just felt sorry for it. Like, oh yeah. Like you're, you tried, but it didn't make it. But yeah, I mean, two. So you know, there'll be a different financial calculus that comes with that, but at the same time, we just kind of got lucky from that fertility perspective, because now we don't have to try to get pregnant again.

Missy Modell:
You're done.

Claire Wasserman:
That entire process, which of course, you know, forget financial huge emotional, and physical component to it so, and especially because I'll be 37 when I give birth. So and they always make you feel great about how old you are.

Missy Modell:
Geriatric pregnancy at 37.

Claire Wasserman:
Yeah, they're not using that word anymore. But it was interesting with the two, at first, it felt like that's oh my gosh, we're going to have to spend so much more money upfront. But then we actually realized there are savings in that getting pregnant again perspective because we had always wanted to anyway. So check back with me when I'm less, and reality has hit.

Missy Modell:
How are you feeling physically right now?

Claire Wasserman:
Good. I'm 12 weeks, and it was nausea, vomit, hell from 5 to 11, and the sun emerged. I got a little bump, and I'm really just enjoying the time between, you know, when the bump is adorable as opposed to frighteningly enormous. So the biggest thing I think I've learned in all of this is, A, to trust my body, which I have struggled with in years past, and just really be in the moment because I can tell it's like I want to enjoy myself. And then I think, oh, Claire, it's going to get really hard. Wait, we're not there yet. We're not there yet. And by the time we get there, you'll learn hacks of how to handle it, just like the learned hacks for how to handle it, to sort of have kind of trust in yourself that you're clever enough to figure this out/get the support you need when things do become hard. I'm trying to just soak up as much life lessons as possible during this time, because I am finding my productivity at work has gone down, sorry Ladies Get Paid.

Missy Modell:
But that's okay, you know, I think women are so hard on themselves and are so quick to apologize for not being productive when you're literally carrying two children inside of you right now.

Claire Wasserman:
Different definition of productivity, right?

Missy Modell:
Yeah.

Claire Wasserman:
We were just talking about it earlier of, you know, for five weeks, I sort of was immobile. I was that nauseous. And I was being like, I'm doing nothing, I'm doing, you know, I'm not doing anything. And I'm like, Holy shit, I'm making bones inside my body. I'm making a brain, and not only a brain, I'm making two brains. Like, in fact, this time of lack of productivity is the most productive I've ever been. It's just not me in terms of like, I ego self. I'm not doing anything, my body is doing it. And that's where again, that the life lesson of like learning to relate and to trust yourself in different ways, I think, is so valuable beyond what I'm experiencing now.

Missy Modell:
And just on another kind of like moving in a bit of a different direction. What are the types of conversations you've had with your wife as it relates to babies and budgeting? And just like overall shifting, having these difficult or, you know, having these real-life financial conversations because it's not just the two of you now you're incorporating a family life. What are your, what have you gone through? What are your recommendations for people navigating this process as it relates to finances?

Claire Wasserman:
Yeah, I think, first, get in touch with as many people as possible who are in similar situations to you. Like the first thing I did was like, who do I know who's a twin mom? Or putting, you know, hey, who out there knows somebody who's a twin mom? And trading stories just like learning from other people as best as you can. The, asking questions of like, what do you wish you'd known? Dos and don'ts. You know, what's worth spending the money on? What's not? You know, just getting the information from other people who are in similar situations is key. And then I think systems, I mean, this is the same advice I give to anybody for their career or whatever. It's like, make life easier for yourself by creating, whether it's using, you know, notion or Airtable or, you know, these third party platforms where you can just store all information so it's not swirling around in your head, is so key. And just breaking it down, right? Like you're going to want to do everything all at once or feel compelled to do that. But to say this is really big and it's a marathon, I'm going to be raising a child like this is not just the next couple of months, like this is long haul, so what are really, what are sustainable ways that I can start tackling this? And that might be only spending 30 minutes doing research on a given day based on something, right? And that's it. Don't do anything else. Forcing yourself to stop constantly questioning, constantly gut checking. Is what I'm doing sustainable in all of this? I'm going to read all the books. No, you're not. Read one book and only read one chapter and actually 15 minutes and go to sleep because that's important too, right? So really the micro-stepping along the way is so key. But I do think systems are going to be very important for us, especially with twins thinking about even like the feeding schedule, right? Having it in a set place, putting calendar alerts, and then tweaking it, knowing, hey, this is what we thought would work, but now that we're in it, we got to rearrange things. Same thing with the budget. Hey, we thought this was what was going to be important, and now I'm realizing we, you know, there's an emergency here, or actually, that's less important or whatever. So having a built-in reflection in to evaluate your systems and your finances is also key.

Missy Modell:
And that just leads me to the broader question of budgeting, because I feel like even from a young age, I've been taught, not taught, but like budgeting was viewed, and I think obviously it's different now. We're really embracing the concept of budgeting, but it used to be this kind of weighty, stigmatized thing that you have to sacrifice everything in your life. So what are your rules around budgeting and how often should we be visiting our finances? Is it weekly? Is it daily? Do you have top bird's eye view of like how we should be navigating this?

Claire Wasserman:
I think you're spot on. Budgets feel oftentimes for folks restrictive and that, I would say look at it as kind of goal facilitation. It comes down to knowing yourself and what your values are, and your priorities too. So it's not making a budget of the shoulds or expectations of others, but really looking at, you know, and by the way, the book, I Will Teach You to be Rich is excellent for this. It's also a Netflix ...

Missy Modell:
You have it somewhere?

Claire Wasserman:
Yeah. Where he really is like how, you know, how do you create a rich life? First, you have to define it for yourself. What is your rich life? My joke earlier of like, you know, hey, this water bottle really improved my quality of life. It costs like 12 bucks, right? So if you, you know, do your due diligence first on self-reflection of what your basic needs are in your life, what helps you thrive? Environments. And don't start making financial sacrifices just yet, okay? Just really like dig into that stuff first, and then you can take a look at, you know, from what you make. I mean, a rule of thumb is that about 50% of it should go to your needs, about 30% should go to your wants, and about 20% should go towards paying off debt and savings. Of course, those percentages can and should be changed based on your own life, it's personal, but that's one way to to at least tackle the bird's eye view of what's coming in and what more you might need to make, and where you might want to cut down. Just again, always going back to like, what do you actually care about in your life? And you may find, listen, it's actually not. I thought it was closed, it used to be closed, not anymore. It's more of, it's, maybe it's a vacation now, or I don't really need to spend much, but it's important to me that I get to work from home. So I'm okay to take a lower paycheck because I have a remote job or whatever. And then, in terms of cadence, it's whatever's going to make you the least anxious. So it, never checking your bank account actually makes you anxious because you're always thinking about it. All right, we got to start checking it. But if constantly checking it is making you anxious, that's not good either. So maybe start out with something like a once-a-week. You might not need it, so then it's a once a month. But make sure you're giving yourself something fun related to the budget. Like you have this goal of a thing that you want, like a prenatal massage. And like maybe it's not in the budget for this month. So could you make a little game for yourself of like, where can I cut down next month to start saving up for that prenatal massage? But if anything feels like restrictive and awful, like that's no quality of life again. So that was my long-winded answer.

Missy Modell:
No, I love it. And I mean, you're just inspiring so many other questions for me. We're living in a generation of passion, right? We all want to be entrepreneurial to some extent and be, you know, living these really expansive lives. How important is it in your mind to have financial stability and maybe versus loving what you do?

Claire Wasserman:
Very good question. That's, for me in particular, because I grew up with parents who loved what they did for a living, but like, didn't necessarily make that much money. My mom worked in the opera, and my dad worked in publishing. However, in their jobs, those jobs had lifestyles built into it that spoke to their values and quality of life, like they were constantly hosting like dinner parties with interesting people. Like what they had access to was people like networks and information, and so there was so much privilege in that. But like, you know, I would go over to a friend's house. Like my friends' homes would have, like, mansions, right? Like, but like they their parents hated what they did, right? So I always sort of looked at this as like, you can be rich in so many different ways. And again, it goes back to like, what is your, what are your values, and then what are your priorities in those values? And can you, not have it all but have it all at different stages of your life? So for example, when I first moved to New York, I had $300 in my bank account, and I lived on my cousin's couch in the Bronx, right, and got a job at a restaurant. And like, long story short, like, I didn't feel the need to have a nice home for a very long time, like lived in shitholes in New York. That was not important to me. What was important to me was exploring myself, exploring the city. Now, listen, I could only do that because I had the privilege of knowing if I needed to go home to my parents, I could have dependents. I wasn't, you know, helping them pay off a mortgage or no health issues, right? So there's always the layer of privilege in this conversation that needs to be acknowledged. But then things are changing, right? Like us having kids, I've raised my standards of living, like we are, so I raise my prices like, but am I sacrificing what I do for a living? No. I figured out a way to make the money I need and love what I do and have the lifestyle I want, so I can show you that it is possible. But also, not everybody needs and wants to absolutely love what they do. Like, sometimes a paycheck is just a paycheck, and it can be very exhausting to be so passionate about your work, to work for yourself, because then you have ... I'm turning it off. So there are pros and cons to every single choice that you make.

Missy Modell:
And obviously, going back to what we were saying earlier about the wage gap, the gender pay gap, and if you can just quickly define it for us, because maybe we live it every day, but we don't actually know what it is.

Claire Wasserman:
Sure, yeah. So it's been recorded since I think, '63 when the Equal Pay Act was enacted. So just as a definition, it's calculated by dividing national median income of a full-time, year-round working woman by the national median income of a full-time, year-round working man. Here's the thing, though, that needs to be noted. It really depends on a lot of factors, including what industry you're in, what role you're in, if, what the color of your skin, if you're single, where you live, okay? So you might be in some scenarios where men and women are paid pretty equally, actually. And then, in certain situations, all you're looking at, you're going, oh my gosh, how is this even possible? How are they paid so little? Unfortunately, that can get weaponized by those who believe the wage gap doesn't exist, or you know, it's as simple as, well, women choose lower-paying jobs, but you can also make the argument of, well, why does a maid get paid less than a janitor? And maids tend to be women, right? Janitors tend to be men. Or in a school system, teachers get paid less than the principal, and the superintendent makes sense, but how come the majority of teachers are women and the majority of principals and superintendents are men? Or historically, you can look at industries like technology, there were more women in it, it was low-paid. Over time, more men began to dominate the tech industry, wages went up; interior decorating, guess what, it used to be dominated by men, higher paid. All of a sudden women started dominating, industry became lower paid. Therefore, it's more of a question of what kind of work we value and who does that work, and why do some roles get paid more than others? Is it because we think that role is worth more, or the kind of person who does that role? So you could look at this and say it's very complicated and overwhelming and we're screwed, or we could be more optimistic and say, there's actually a lot of ways that we can improve this, you know? Because it isn't just flipping a switch and making it better, that'd be great, but if that's not possible, we can now approach it from various angles of whether it's getting more women into, you know, construction jobs that pay a lot. You know, tech, it's, I mean, at the end of the day, though, if I had to pick one thing, it's paid family leave. If we could improve paid family leave in this country as well as have universal child care, you would see a lot less women drop out of the workforce and then struggle to on ramp back in and then catch up with the wages, because the wage gap really does begin overall, when a woman has her first child. When a man has his first child, he usually gets a pay bump. So even though I've started by saying there's a lot of variables that go into this, and it's highly contextual, if you want to hang your hat on one thing, it does come down to, it's having children that makes women make less money, which is really unfortunate because kids cost so much money, when we actually need them to be making more.

Missy Modell:
And women are more likely to quit their job when they have a child.

Claire Wasserman:
I think it's a combination. I think it's that they look at how much it costs for childcare and how much they're currently making, and they realize it's more financially savvy for them to just stay home in the, but in the long term, and when they go back to work, they're going to have they'll never catch up.

Missy Modell:
So something else that's really important to note is when women are making money, we do such good things with it. We're so much more charitable. We're, we invest in purpose-driven companies. So what is our hope for, you know, turning the tables around? What do you see as a good next step for women who are hearing this and want to get empowered in their own lives financially and step up in that way?

Claire Wasserman:
First of all, again, join Ladies Get Paid, or join a community of other folks. They're going to hold you accountable, and they're also going to keep you going from an emotional standpoint. Best thing you can do though, if you have a 401K match at your company, please, please max it out. Otherwise, you're leaving free money on the table. Okay? Also, please check on any sort of silly things you're spending money on in terms of like late fees, right? With interest or, you know, stop your bleeding money, and you don't have to please stop those. And if you haven't asked for a raise, find me, LadiesGetPaid.com or LadiesGetPaid on all social channels, or me on Instagram at ClaireGetsPaid.

Missy Modell:
And do you have a quick hot tip for here for salary negotiation? It's like a quick rapid-fire moment.

Claire Wasserman:
Yeah, just talk to white men about how much they make and know that that might be awkward, but they want to be allies. So tell them you're doing research, show them the research you did, I think I should be making an X and Y. You know, you'd be being a great ally. Am I off base? And you got nothing to lose other than money if you don't ask. So start doing real market research, not just Glassdoor, but actual people. And it starts with the numbers. You'll feel confident when you know you have numbers to back it up and track your wins, please: how you're contributing to the company, how are you making them money, how are you saving them money. This also includes contributing to the company culture, okay? Track it now. Start talking about it now. You wait until it's time for the negotiation or time for the performance evaluation, you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself. So those are some first next steps. Hopefully, that was helpful.

Missy Modell:
So helpful. And lastly, you're given a lump of some. Somebody leaves you a small inheritance, you placed a bet and you won. What do you do with that money? Do you put it into your savings, or do you pay off your debt?

Claire Wasserman:
I would, I mean, high-yield savings account, first of all, so not just any savings account, but a high-yield savings account. Make sure you have at least 3 to 6 months in it, and then yes, put it in an investment account. It's going to make compound interest over time, which is another word for free money over time. So you don't want to just be living in a like, I'm only paying off debt. I just don't want, I mean, why would we pay interest? Like, let's not make credit card companies or these loan companies any richer than they than we have to, right? So again, make sure you're not, you know, losing money on interest and things like that, but don't lose out on the free money either by not investing.

Missy Modell:
So good.

Claire Wasserman:
Mutual fund, by the way. Mutual fund.

Missy Modell:
Mutual fund, which we can learn about at Ladies Get Paid.

Claire Wasserman:
Yes, yeah, come to our blog. Do something, investing is not gambling if you're doing a mutual fund.

Missy Modell:
That's so helpful.

Claire Wasserman:
We're guaranteed a return over time, over a long time. So you have to be willing to not see your money for a while, but you will absolutely make money from investing.

Missy Modell:
Amazing. And we end every show with this question, which is what are you sorry for apologizing for?

Claire Wasserman:
Actually, I'm going to flip the script, which is very annoying, but I'm going to say I'm sorry to have not apologized to myself about how harsh I've been, how hard I am on so many aspects. So I actually think I deserve an apology myself.

Missy Modell:
I love it, that's so good. And so where can people find you one last time?

Claire Wasserman:
LadiesGetPaid.com, ClaireWasserman.com, LadiesGetPaid on all social channels, and ClaireGetsPaid on Instagram.

Missy Modell:
Thank you so much, Claire. You're amazing and I can't wait to see this journey with your two babies.

Claire Wasserman:
Hope they're cute.

Missy Modell:
They will be. Thank you.

Claire Wasserman:
All right thanks, Missy. Appreciate you and all your work.

Missy Modell:
Thank you for listening to Sorry for Apologizing, brought to you by Rescripted. If you enjoyed this week's episode, be sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our amazing guests. To stay in the know, follow me at @MissyModell on Instagram and TikTok, or head to Rescripted.com, and don't forget to like and subscribe!

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