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Missy Modell:
Welcome to Sorry for Apologizing. I'm your host, Missy Modell, activist, strategist, and recovering chronic apologizer. In this podcast, we'll explore all of the ways women have been conditioned by society to play small, whether it's being expected to have children tolerate chronic pain or accept gender inequities, from orgasms to paychecks. This season will work to challenge the cultural beliefs that brought us here and discuss all of the reasons why we should be asking for forgiveness rather than permission. It is time to stop apologizing.

Missy Modell:
There are 70 million caregivers in America, but when a family member develops a serious health issue, women are about twice as likely as men to take on caregiving responsibilities. Women caregivers are also more likely to develop higher levels of stress, depression, and anxiety compared to their male counterparts. Why? Well, we talk about this with our friend Tembi Locke. She cared for her late husband for many years and has since become a tremendous advocate for caregivers. She's a gifted storyteller and channeled her grief into a force to help others and wrote about her experiences. She's a New York Times best-selling author and co-creator of the Netflix series From Scratch, which you must watch if you haven't, and you must read the book if you haven't yet. She's also the host of one of my favorite podcasts, Lifted. Tembi Locke, welcome to the show.

Tembi Locke:
Hello, Missy. Thank you for having me. I'm honored to be here.

Missy Modell:
I'm so happy to have you here. And you just do so much incredible work in so many different spheres.

Tembi Locke:
You know? Thank you. And it's something that it is a constant evolution and something I'm constantly stepping into. And I wish I could say it is wholly by design, but it's not. Some of it's just purely me going by. I choose my own adventure. What do I feel pulled and moved to do? And then I put the design on it later. I love some structure around it. Later, once I realized, oh, I'm doing this thing, let me actually put some conscious mind space. So I always am grateful when it's mirrored back to me when I'm doing because often I'm just so in it and I'm just led by my heart that one of the things I'm attempting to do is to be more intentional in a different way. I'm always intentional, but just intentional in a different way. So.

Missy Modell:
I love it. And you've, I mean, if we're talking about From Scratch, you are the author of one of my favorite books that I've read in a very long time, and obviously, we want to get into that. But just firstly, you were a caregiver for so many years, so maybe for people that don't know what is a caregiver, because I don't even think the term is known to everybody.

Tembi Locke:
Well, what's fun? Just a side note and a yeah, like something that will make you laugh. I was a caregiver, which I will explain what that is. And I didn't know what the name of it really was. And I was driving in the streets of LA, and this is in the early aughts, and there were these signs popping up in like, strip malls for caregivers. And I was like, oh, I think that's me. I should pull over and, like, didn't know, what are they doing? A meetings for caregivers, what is actually happening? And then I realized they were weed shops.

Missy Modell:
No. Stop it.

Tembi Locke:
And initially, in the early iteration, you know, marijuana being legal in California, they were called caregiver shops. And so I think that there's something very funny about that. And also, I don't know, cosmically on point. Yes. Yeah. So a caregiver is I was a cancer caregiver. So that's the specificity. It's a family member who is caring for someone who has a long-term, chronic, or critical illness. And you are their physical custodian, their medical custodian. You are their person, right? Who is helping to shepherd them through a critical illness or a lifelong illness? And for me, and there are many family caregivers. So instantly, you know what that is. And for me, it was my husband who was diagnosed with cancer and I was his primary caregiver. Now there are paid caregivers, someone that you a home health care aide that you hire to come in.

Tembi Locke:
But I'm talking about the family caregiver who's caring for a brother or a spouse or a parent or a child, and often, sometimes, a best friend who just needs care. And there are 70 million caregivers in America on any given day, and the majority of whom are women who also have full-time jobs. So you're doing this invisible, unpaid labor of caring for another person through a critical illness. So it's different than being, you know, I was also a caregiver to my child. I was a parent, but that didn't come with it—the medical-industrial complex. So I was doing both. I was actually a parent to a young child at the same time. I was caring for my husband, and that was a decade of my life. And it became a formative and foundational experience, a life-changing experience. And it's a part of what prompted me to write my book. After my husband passed, I knew that there was a. A lot that I had learned about love and life, and at that point, loss that felt worthy of me attempting to document it, to write about it, to process it. It felt like a worthy endeavor of my time. I had no idea that it was going to do what it would ultimately do in the world, which is become a book Reese's Book Club pick. Yeah. Get adapted, picked up to be adapted for screen. And then that I would be a part of all of that process.

Missy Modell:
Well, I think because people resonate with grief so profoundly, it's something everybody experiences at some point in their life. But then exposing the caregiving side, which I think is not spoken about, and you've become such an incredible advocate because I can't even imagine grieving, but let alone having a child working taking care of. So what we talk about like the invisible, visible labor. What toll did this take on you? Obviously, that's a big question.

Tembi Locke:
It is a big question, but I can answer some parts of it. I mean, at different times, my answer is different. It kind of depends on what I'm dropping into. But I will say one of there were things that it asked of me and told that it took on me, and there were things that were very generative about it. So I like to talk about both things because it's not all just the thing, the way caregiving is depleting, but we can't ignore that. And it needs we need to put a spotlight on that because if 70 million people are doing it and 70 million people are walking around depleted, and it's taking a toll on them, I think collectively, as a society, as a society, we need to discuss that. So, for me personally, in my one story for me, it took a toll on my physical being, which I didn't know until after it was over. So I had I was constantly living in a fight-flight with an adrenal overload because I was constantly in response mode. The caregiving often does that. The nature of the kind of caregiving that I had to do, which would have sudden spikes in fever that send you to the E.R. there were there were lots of ways in which my nervous system was hijacked. I did not know that when it was happening. I was just living my life and doing the things that needed to get done. But after my husband passed away and I was laid flat with both grief and adrenal fatigue, then I began over many years to understand the physiological impact of so much caregiving.

Tembi Locke:
So that's sort of one of the tolls that, and if you'd met me, you wouldn't have known. I was just like, highly functioning, highly operative, going, yeah, but there was this sort of thing that was happening in the background that was very, and I knew I was tired. Of course, I knew I was tired as a mom. Yeah. And I had a husband, so I knew I was tired. But it took years before I understood the sort of deeper implications to my central nervous system. The things that it gave were a profound understanding of the vulnerability of life, a profound understanding of the nature of connection and community. Because I could not have gone through a decade of it without a community of people. And at the time, I didn't even see them as a community. I saw them as one-off friends who were helping me. But if I look back and I would do like a constellation map of all of those individuals, it was a community and I learned how to build community in that way. Not that I was doing it intentionally at the time. I was just like calling out into the world, help, help, help. So community connection, vulnerability. And also I learned to ask for help in the world, which is not something that I knew how to do before I was a caregiver. Mm. I was like, I don't need to ask for help. I'll just figure it out. And I was the I'll figure it out person. And ten years of caregiving will teach you to lean into. Hey, by the way, could you help me with this?

Missy Modell:
And you said something that's really sticking with me that you didn't even know how tired you were, how much you drained your adrenals. Do you think that's something that women do in caregiving? In life? They kind of just suppress their emotions to show up for others. Does that resonate with you?

Tembi Locke:
Absolutely. I think it's we are holding a lot. I think we feel a lot. I'm a highly sensitive person, and I'm an empath. So there's that. Also, um, but yeah, the two things that leap to mind are one, we are conditioned societally to sort of take on a lot and try to navigate a lot and multitask. I think we're wired. Our brains are wired to do that work. If we go back to the sort of I've heard stories, and I'm not a sociologist or an anthropologist, so I can't speak to the legitimacy of this, but something resonates with it, which is that if we go to the evolution of humanity, women who were, while they, the hunters and gatherers, were out doing whatever that looked like, we were back at the cave by the campfire with kids, like making sure bears didn't come while we were cooking, while we were nursing a child, and while we were shucking corn. Yeah, that is a multidirectional, multifaceted holding of space in a way that I think we have evolved, and we still do all of that only in a 21st-century way. And it does come with a high cost. But the good news is we can unlearn some of that. And I think the other thing about it is that I think women have to live in their bodies, as adult women for a couple decades. I'm gonna say your 20s and into your 30s before you really are attuned and sensitive to your physical being to recognize what's happening.

Missy Modell:
Wow.

Tembi Locke:
I think it's happening, I think, but some of being in your 20s is just not recognizing it. You just think like, oh, there are these. And I think it takes a little bit of living in the body before we go. Oh, I see a pattern here.

Missy Modell:
And even just maybe even specifically to grief, do you feel in all of your work you're doing around this topic and caregiving, do you find that women carry grief differently, respond to grief differently than men?

Tembi Locke:
I do think so. My instinct. So let me just speak personally for me. I knew I needed to become familiar with my grief. I needed to befriend it, and I needed to get to know it. I couldn't compartmentalize it and push it off in a corner. Now, is that true of all women? I can't say that. I'm sure there are many women who compartmentalize and let me push through, and I'm not going to pay attention to this. I'm pretty sure more men do that because society has not made space for men to be with and attuned to their feelings in the same way that it has for women, so that when men encounter a deep grief, they literally don't know what to do with it, and they try to put it away. And I think it rears its head in other ways. So, in that sense, I think women are perhaps more willing to embody, and I use the terms embody their grief. I think everyone has their own trajectory and their own time, and every grief is different. The way you grieve a parent might be different than a sibling, or a best friend, or, God forbid, a child. They're all very different types of grief, and they are nonlinear. They are very much not all grief is nonlinear. So, to that end, I would just I would say that women probably are more likely to call a friend. They're probably more likely to like, oh my gosh, what is going on? I meant to stay in bed today, or I need to watch sad movies because I'm feeling sad. I mean, I think we might carve out a little bit of space for it. I think even just at a certain level, having had a monthly cycle all of our lives, we know, oh, I need to just be still today. I don't feel so great. We've we've been doing that since we were 12.

Missy Modell:
Yep. Or 16.

Tembi Locke:
Or 16, whatever the time was. Right. I think we just sort of, like, know. Okay. Yeah, I think I need a moment.

Missy Modell:
I think that's so, so spot on, and even and I've shared with you and the past few months, I've been dealing with actually over the past year, I've been dealing with two separate instances of people that are extremely close to me going through horrible situations, one of whom just passed, one of who is currently in a caregiving role. And I think for people listening and that are witness to these incredible, brave caregivers, we don't know how to respond or act or show up and afraid of saying the wrong thing. What was the most helpful thing for you in going through this process?

Tembi Locke:
First of all, I want to say I'm so sorry for your loss.

Missy Modell:
Thank you.

Tembi Locke:
And I want to also say that that the fact that you're even asking this question of how to help your friend is already you're being a good friend. And I think the thing that I would say first and foremost is that at times when I needed the most care when I was giving the most care to my husband, is the time I needed the most care. Right? And often, I was slightly nonverbal about that. And I don't mean because. I don't mean because I lacked the words. I shared the experience. The emotional experience felt so big that I couldn't. I guess I couldn't really put words around it, so I didn't know what to ask for. I'm just like, it was like a static of like lists of things in my head that needed to get done. And it felt like more effort to stop, break it down, call someone, tell them the five-six things I needed them to just. I'll just do it myself. Yeah, and that's what I alluded to earlier when I saying it took me a long time to ask for help. So eventually, I think the thing that I learned and that the people around me learned was most useful and helpful to me was sort of being very observant and boots on the ground. So I had one person who was like, watching me really closely and then would telegraph out to everyone else, okay, I'm seeing she needs this, she needs that, she needs that. And then so it wasn't me having to go and ask, there was someone who was that person. So I highly recommend that model.

Missy Modell:
Love that.

Tembi Locke:
Eyes very close to the caregiver who's able to kind of see and then can communicate back out to the larger community what is needed, and then that community just does the work.

Tembi Locke:
Like it's just I had literally someone show up and mow my lawn. I had people come in full clothes. I had people obviously do groceries, meal trains, those kinds of things. People driving my husband to and from treatments. I live in LA, and we live in one part of the city. My husband was being treated in literally in the opposite side in LA and traffic and all the things. That is its own endeavor. That was sometimes a three-hour round trip without the treatment, just three hours at the car. And if you have a patient who is nauseous and ill post-chemo, time in a car is hard. So I had people who could drive and who would be like, I'm taking the afternoon, and I'm your driver. And they knew to go slow, and they knew to take surface streets, and they knew to keep a bag in the car in case some my husband was nauseous and all of that. And that's those are the kinds of things, actionable, tangible items that's taking care of the life piece. And then I had people who were the emotional support people, the people that I could call. They maybe didn't bring a meal, or they didn't mow my lawn, but I could call them, and I could just kvetch. I could just say all the things I needed to say that I didn't feel safe expressing maybe to someone else, but they were the designated unfiltered. Share the dumping ground, which is I need them to fix anything. I didn't need them to fix anything. I just needed a place to dump.

Missy Modell:
And I'm glad you allowed the space to do so because I think women, in general, don't want to put that burden. They don't even allow themselves to feel anything, especially in that kind of scenario.

Tembi Locke:
Yeah, well, it usually would get to like such a fevered pitch that I had no other option except to, you know, let it out.

Missy Modell:
Yeah. And you had such a profound love story that impacted and really transformed so many people. It truly caused me to break up with a relationship because I'm like, I want to feel that. I think I shared that with you before, and having that and holding that space in your life and will always be there. How did you know it was time to move on or move forward? Rather, you don't move on, right? It's forward.

Tembi Locke:
Yeah. You don't move forward. Yeah. You move forward with life and you're holding all the threads of all the parts of your life, and not just because I've written a book where I have the opportunity to talk about sort of my late husband. It's not just because of that that he's in my life and in my present. He would be in my life and in my present had I never written the book. And I think that's one of the things about death and about loss is that we are constantly seeking ways to integrate our past and our present, and thread those as we move forward into the future, and that includes being able to talk about our person. It includes being able to sort of honor when a song comes on that reminds me of them or something, a memory that makes them laugh or people say their name, all of that. So for me, moving forward has been and I say moving forward. For those who maybe that sounds what does she mean by that? But if you take sort of like the moment when everything changed. And for me that was March 28th, 2012, that's when my husband passed away. From that moment on, I was in a whole new life, and I had to march forward and rebuild and remake and reimagine what those days and years and all this time would look like. And what is the kind and quality of life that I would want? And how do I hold on to as much of the love that I'd had before that moment? That's what moving forward is.

Tembi Locke:
That's it's this attempt to sort of integrate all of that as we go forward. And for me, it has looked like writing. For me, it has looked like trips to Sicily, which is what is a large part of what from scratch. The book is about those trips that I took, especially in the first years of my after-loss and being widowed and being a solo parent. It has looked like now I can definitely say advocacy. Well, even talking to you today about caregiving is a way of honoring a big part of my life that was a part of my life. It's part of my past. I'm sure someday I have the blessing of decades ahead of me. I'll be a caregiver again to someone. It's an honor to do it. I can't imagine I wouldn't, you know, that's just sort of the nature of life. But those are ways that I move forward. And I have in my parenting. It's been a constant process of holding the absence of a parent present, holding that absence present while you're parenting and going forward. Keeping my late husband's memory alive for his child. That's the way I've moved forward. And then just having my life and then being getting eventually, eventually getting very curious about, well, there's also just me, like me, this new me. What does that look like and what does she want, what interests her, and kind of revisiting whole parts of myself that had gotten sidelined, put on hold in service of other big experiences that now I suddenly have the space to circle back to.

Missy Modell:
It's almost and I think you mentioned something that grief or caregiving is like the deepest form of love.

Tembi Locke:
Oh for sure. Oh, absolutely. For sure.

Missy Modell:
And it's a great amplifier of just what truly matters. It makes everything just feel so I don't know.

Tembi Locke:
Yeah, the word real clear about what matters. It's sort of like, oh, okay, let that roll off your back because that really means absolutely nothing. And there's nothing. And, you know, I often say sometimes now, especially in my life, as I do take on new adventures and new experiences in my life expands and it grows. I do find myself saying to my often to myself, well, Tembi, you're afraid of this thing. It scares you. But I think you've sort of been through the worst thing you could possibly go through. So whatever this thing is you think that you're afraid of, what's the worst that could happen? So go for it. It's a kind of also very freeing. Yeah, it's a very freeing experience because I know what matters. I know what matters.

Missy Modell:
One of the most commonly asked questions when people Google you is to be get remarried, right? Is,

Tembi Locke:
Oh yeah. There's that question. The answer is I did.

Missy Modell:
Uh-huh. And how did you know you were ready to even open that door?

Tembi Locke:
For me? I can only say I didn't really even know I was ready. It was always a question of am. I? Actually wasn't a question for a long time. It was just. It was a non-starter. It was like, that's not a thing. That's not happening. I don't know, okay, whatever. I just need to put one foot in front of the other. I can't even imagine bringing another human into this experience and trying to part. That was not on my radar for a very long time. That is not everyone's experience. I'm only speaking of my experience, so I don't ever want anyone to extrapolate. Like anyone grieving person or any one widowers or widows experience as some universal everything. Some people never want to repartner and they are very clear on that, right? Some people are curious about it, and at a certain point, I was curious not so much about the repartnering part, because I felt, I don't know if that's going to happen to me. I was lucky to have a big, great, beautiful love. What's the likelihood that'll happen again? And I just I was more interested in companionship. I was interested in friendship. I certainly wanted to go on a date into a concert and have a nice dinner. Like I was like, oh, those things would be nice. So that sort of there was that openness, that aperture around companionship. What I didn't know is that a very loving, kind, wonderful human would walk into my life. And then it became about, collectively, both of us deciding, did we want to build a future together, truly in partnership, holding together both of our pasts, not just my past. He has a whole life. I mean, we met in our 40s. We're both bringing whole lives to to the table. And that work is something that and I say work. I don't mean like a 9 to 5 kind of work, but I mean that sort of intentionality of saying, okay, let's partner and let's, let's lean into love. And we both are scared, but who isn't scared?

Missy Modell:
And I think.

Tembi Locke:
Yeah, if I leaned into my scared self, I wouldn't leave my house.

Missy Modell:
I feel that, but I do feel like it's such a source of inspiration for people because people don't talk about the after. I feel like they talk about the during so much, and how there can be joy and moments of feeling like yourself again and connected.

Tembi Locke:
Absolutely. And or conversely, people try to rush through that part of it and get right to the new love story, to the new. It's like they have an impatience for grief, and that the resolution of grief is some new love that those two things are. You'd be surprised. It's in a lot of movies and lifetime, it's oh, well, they found love again, so it's good. Yeah. Well, you know, you can find love again and still be grieving. Those two things go together, actually. Really well.

Missy Modell:
Wow. Do you think you're still grieving?

Tembi Locke:
Of course, you'll. It'll be a lifelong. It'll be a lifelong process.

Tembi Locke:
I miss Saro all the time. What? How am I going to not miss someone I spent half of my adult life with at the time that he passed, was the father of my child and my best friend, and all the things, right? I will always miss them the same way if I'd lost a best friend. But I am here now and I invite new experiences in.

Missy Modell:
You're honestly amazing. You're just remarkable. You are.

Tembi Locke:
It's a process, but I try to now just live in the pulse of my heart's wildest imaginings.

Missy Modell:
That's so everything you say. I'm like, can I read this down really quickly? Let's just put that.

Missy Modell:
Just one more thing talking about women and caregiving, but just women in general. We experience so much overwhelm and burnout and pulling ourselves at the very seams. What are and you're the queen of self-care to me, I feel like, well, thank you really established a great system, and I know you talk a lot about it in your newsletter, which people should subscribe to and just quickly, what are your favorite things to do that are simple and tangible, that are really caring and compassionate for yourself that we can offer today?

Tembi Locke:
I'll tell you something I did just this morning. I buff when I wake up and I have sort of interrupted. Sleep is a thing that I have, right? And some of it is age. Some of it is just nervous system stuff. But I, you know, so I knew I needed extra time this morning and I knew I didn't have the I had an appointment, I didn't have the extra time that I wanted. So I took a deep breath and I said to myself, the part of me that is in need, truly in need of more rest. And I said, I see you, I feel you, and I promise that before the sun sets today, I'm going to give you the rest you need. And just saying those things to myself, I didn't give myself ten more. The what? The time, the actual calendar clock time that. I need it, but it lowered my cortisol level. It lowered my stress level to know that I'm in contract, to pay attention to myself, and to give myself that time before the sun sets. So I'm just in commitment the same way I would if I, you know, when I was parenting to a young child, if she said, I'm hungry, I wouldn't be like, you're hungry. Okay, sorry.

Missy Modell:
I'm ready.

Tembi Locke:
For you. I say, okay, I hear you, I see you. Let me address that. So just knowing that my rest will be addressed gives me peace. And then I have of course, I have to do it. And that's what I'll be doing. What are you doing? That's one thing. That's one like maybe it sounds a little too esoteric, but that's a way. It's like being in a mind space and in a respect with the parts of you that deeply need rest and care.

Missy Modell:
That resonates so deeply. Because I think we think self-care. We think, Garcia, we think all these other kind of external things.

Tembi Locke:
Oh, you mean the self-care industrial complex that tells you it's leave your house, go 17 creams, a four massage, get your nails done. Also, book a trip to Bora. I mean, all of that. Yeah, okay. And by the way, all those things are really wonderful things to do, and they do make you feel good. But I'm talking about a free care practice that is in tune with what you need. And by the way, I say free time people. Some people say, you know, time is money. Time cost all the things. But giving yourself, paying yourself first, that's a great use of your currency.

Missy Modell:
I love that so much, and I often try to do that. I'm going to walk away, and I hope everyone does too with this advice because you should treat yourself the way you would treat a friend, a child, a sibling, a parent. It's like you want to make sure your friend or whomever is fed. They're nourished, they're rested, and how often are we reflecting inwardly and asking those questions? So that's an incredible piece of advice.

Tembi Locke:
Last little bit, I'll add to that. You can give yourself a sort of a hack or a shortcut to doing that because it's sometimes can live in the ether of, oh, I should do this. And it just no, literally right now, wherever you are, get a piece of paper, write down five little things one. Give myself extra time to check in with myself. Hydrate. Right?

Tembi Locke:
Take a deep breath and then put that write that list and put it on your fridge. Literally, put a Post-it note in your car. Put it on your computer at work. Put it in your notes in your phone, put it in a timer so that you what you're doing is you're like, do you have these sort of external reminders throughout your day in all these different parts of your life that remind you to take a breath, drink a glass of water.

Missy Modell:
That's perfect and very CBT therapy. I do that in my therapy. It's excellent. I should just hire, you.

Tembi Locke:
No. Do not hire me. Read my book, but don't hire me.

Missy Modell:
Yes, read the book. And what I ask everybody at the end of the episode is what are you sorry for apologizing for?

Tembi Locke:
I grew up in the South. We say sorry for lots of things, and I don't mind saying sorry for lots of things. That's all. It's all good. The thing I think I'm most sorry for apologizing for is I think for the longest time I apologized to myself for wanting more, for dreaming bigger. I think I apologized it away or I pushed it off to the side or I said, sorry, maybe not. Oh, maybe, you know, like I just diminished it. And that's what I think a sorry is for me is a diminishing. And so that's that's my answer. That's my answer today.

Missy Modell:
I love that I feel that so deeply.

Tembi Locke:
I was diminishing myself.

Missy Modell:
I think we all do at some point or another.

Tembi Locke:
Yeah. So I'm so Tembi I'm sorry diminishing you.

Missy Modell:
Well, where can people find you if they would like to?

Tembi Locke:
Yeah.

Missy Modell:
Temby.

Tembi Locke:
First of all, you can go to TembiLocke.com, Locke with an E. You can also find me on Instagram. I have a newsletter that you can subscribe to. You can get my book from scratch, or you can listen to my podcast Lifted, and which is where you find podcasts. And then if you want the full experience, you can then go on a streamer called Netflix. And there's a whole story. It's called From Scratch and it is an adaptation. It's inspired by my life, but it's not a true biography in the sense the character doesn't have the same name as me and other things like that which we can don't need to go into for this. But the point but that's a whole lesson on how adaptations are different than books. That's a different podcast.

Missy Modell:
I love it. Thank you so, so much for your time.

Tembi Locke:
It's a pleasure. Thank you for your work and thank you for this podcast. I know it's so helpful to so many people. It's really eye-opening.

Missy Modell:
Thank you. And if you agree with what Tembi just said, please consider sharing this podcast rating, subscribing. I always forget to do these call to action. So it means so much to us and me and Tammy if you shared and spread the good love. Thanks for listening.

Tembi Locke:
Thank you, Missy.

Missy Modell:
Thanks, Tembi. Thank you for listening to Sorry for Apologizing. Brought to you by Rescripted. If you enjoyed this week's episode, be sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our amazing guests. To stay in the know, follow me @MissyModell on Instagram and TikTok or head to rescripted.com and don't forget to like and subscribe!

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