Sorry for Apologizing_Pronatalism with Lori Adelman: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

Sorry for Apologizing_Pronatalism with Lori Adelman: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Missy Modell:
Welcome to Sorry for Apologizing. I'm your host, Missy Modell: activist, strategist, and recovering chronic apologizer. In this podcast, we'll explore all of the ways women have been conditioned by society to play small, whether it's being expected to have children, tolerate chronic pain, or accept gender inequities from orgasms to paychecks. This season, we'll work to challenge the cultural beliefs that brought us here and discuss all of the reasons why we should be asking for forgiveness rather than permission. It is time to stop apologizing.

Missy Modell:
So today's guest on the podcast is Lori Adelman, a feminist activist, strategist, and co-host of the feminist podcast Cringewatchers. Welcome.

Lori Edelman:
Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

Missy Modell:
I'm so happy to have you guide this conversation, and you're truly the perfect person to talk about expectations around women to be childbearing entities, so thank you.

Lori Edelman:
Absolutely.

Missy Modell:
So I'm going to be starting each episode with a mean tweet. So do you mind if I go ahead and share?

Lori Edelman:
Absolutely, let's trauma dump.

Missy Modell:
Let's trauma dump, and this is a personal trauma dump. I posted a video recently about just turning 36 and not having children and not being married yet. What's up?

Lori Edelman:
Oh, 36, childfree?

Missy Modell:
Yes, and much to my surprise, I've received thousands of comments from men. Very alarmed by this fact, so I just wanted to share a few with you. "Wait a few more years, dear. There will be no more dancing when you're alone without family."

Lori Edelman:
Ohhhh.

Missy Modell:
That's one.

Lori Edelman:
Wow.

Missy Modell:
"How many cats do you have? Damn. Hope you froze your eggs."

Lori Edelman:
Oh, okay. How many cats do you have?

Missy Modell:
I have two small cat-like dogs.

Lori Edelman:
Great! That's, sounds wonderful.

Missy Modell:
And this is my favorite. "In a few years, you'll be alone and hoping you had kids and a husband that loves you. When you're old, it's too late. No one is coming around anymore. Watch." So just quickly, what is your initial gut reaction to those?

Lori Edelman:
I think it's really nice and generous that so many of these men are thinking of you and your future in such great detail and with such optimism and clarity, and, no, that's awful. I'm so sorry that you had to go through that.

Missy Modell:
But this isn't a unique experience to me, right? I feel like there's so much pressure on women to have children, and there's actually a name for this that I had not heard before researching this topic, which is Pronatalism.

Lori Edelman:
Yes.

Missy Modell:
And were you familiar with this before? Because I had no idea what this was.

Lori Edelman:
It's a thing. You know, I think I'm more familiar with the reality of it than with the term itself, so I think it'd be good if we get into that a little bit.

Missy Modell:
Yeah, so Pronatalism is the policy or practice of encouraging people to have children, it's the promotion of childbearing. For social and economic purposes, I think that's an important addendum. So do you think it is socially and economically beneficial for women to have children at the rate in which they expect us to?

Lori Edelman:
Absolutely, and you know, I will do you one better. I will say it is considered socially beneficial by most governments, not only to say when women should have children, but also to be able to like turn that off and say when they shouldn't. So it's actually two sides of the same coin. There are times when it makes sense for the government or other powerful people to say, okay, women, time to produce, and there are times when it makes sense to tell them to stop. And in both cases, I would argue they probably should stay out of our business. But yeah, it's sort of this known lever that people in power have been pulling actually for generations.

Missy Modell:
And in the US specifically, it dates back to the 19th century, which I didn't know about, and it was not just the government. They had doctors, psychologists, and politicians as well, creating these public campaigns, convincing American women to have children.

Lori Edelman:
It's not surprising at all, and I would love to get my hands on some of those vintage ads, advertising, you know, the stork and all of that. I'm sure we could have a field day there.

Missy Modell:
And one of my favorite ones, it said, don't deny the true you.

Lori Edelman:
Oh, we shouldn't. We shouldn't deny the true you.

Missy Modell:
So where does this obsession come from? Why are people so obsessed with women's bodies?

Lori Edelman:
Goodness, if I could answer that, I probably would be a much more successful feminist activist than I am, but from where I'm sitting, really, this all comes down to power. And actually, there's a really rich history of tying our bodies and the means of reproduction basically to issues as grand as national security and even the spread of democracy. This is really connected to the idea of the national identity, and it's been really a long time that that's been the case.

Missy Modell:
Now, women make up 47% of the US workforce and we have a record low birth rate, and people are saying this is a national crisis.

Lori Edelman:
Yeah, which is rich, right? Because going back to what we were just talking about, it's also not just encouraging women to have children, but it's encouraging certain women to have children. And you don't have to peel back the layers too much to get to this place where you understand actually the children that they want us to be having are white, middle to upper-class American children. Anything other than that, they're going to pull that other lever and do their hardest to make it really difficult for women to control their fertility.

Missy Modell:
But the irony, it's those populations that are the ones that have the least access. So is that backfiring? What do you think about that? Because people of privilege will always be able to have access to abortions, or not always, but it will be much easier for them to have access.

Lori Edelman:
That's right. So I think a really good way to think about this in the logic that's operating here is to really think about immigration policies. In general, there are a lot of people in the United States who are fighting this idea of immigrants coming into this country who want to be here, who are coming here to seek a better life or to be with family, or for any number of reasons. And there are people in this country, including politicians and people in power, who will say, No, we don't want those immigrants coming in. We need to keep America, America, right? And it's those same people politically who will turn around and have these pro-natalist policies and say, but we really need to be repopulating our country with good American workers. And so it really doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that what they're saying is they want to hold on to the majority white country, which we are already, that ship has sailed, sorry. And they want to really continue to control the upper echelons of society by, sort of rearing young people of privilege who can continue to take over the privileged positions that these folks have occupied in society for a really long time. And so I do think it's important to connect politicians' positions on something like immigration with their position on Pronatalism to really see the full scope. It's not just that they're wishing the best for you in terms of building a beautiful family. Unfortunately, it's something much darker than that and much more controlling.

Missy Modell:
I mean, that was brilliantly said. And also, once you have the child, there is no support for that child.

Lori Edelman:
Exactly, and I think another way to think about the hypocrisy of this is to look back at years of American foreign policy. In the past, I worked a lot in different NGOs that work globally, so through that work, I came to learn more about the history of how the US has operated, not only here in terms of talking to its own population, but what kinds of messages it's been sending globally. And so again, they're pairing that pro-natalist message here at home with a very opposite message globally, where literally the origin of US foreign policy involved, as soon as it was available, shipping birth control overseas, not in the name of reproductive choice and justice, but explicitly in the name of reducing the potential of young people in other countries, typically black and brown, people who could grow up and contribute to a threat, or specifically a population inequality when fight, battling with the US in terms of a military operation.

Missy Modell:
Oh my God.

Lori Edelman:
Yeah.

Missy Modell:
I had no idea. How do you think that now translates here?

Lori Edelman:
Oh my goodness, the remnants are everywhere around you, right? So we have so much of this history that's still present today. And to their credit, there are so many badass women globally who have sort of come in and taken over some of these funding streams that were providing birth control to women who wanted it and said, we'll take this birth control, but not for the reasons that you want. We really want women to have choice. So some of that has been subverted from the inside, which is really cool. But I still think it lives on in a lot of how the US thinks about reproductive choice and freedom, so we don't have this explicit nationalist goal to ensure that everyone has reproductive justice and reproductive bodily autonomy. Instead, we have these other kinds of conversations and they're very racially loaded as well. So we'll talk about population, we will talk about replacement, and even if it's not being explicitly talked about at the White House, these things trickle down to, the ... your YouTuber who is explicitly talking about replacement theory, and that's how you get people marching through the streets saying "Jews will not replace us" because of this kind of anxiety that continues to circulate, especially among the white men who kind of see these demographic shifts happening and feel that they're losing control and that they're losing their place in society and sort of put all of that angst and panic onto the bodies of women.

Missy Modell:
And just the sheer unavailability of options for men's birth control as well. There's nothing except for a condom right now, I think, because all the side effects are so severe for men that they're actually the side effects that women experience on a daily basis.

Lori Edelman:
Exactly. I know there are some interesting trials still happening, but you're exactly right, that, you know, many of them have stopped early because the men complained about their side effects being too difficult, so unfortunately, we are stuck with very limited options at the moment, although I will put a plug-in for vasectomy under a plug ..., plug, plug, plug, plug ...

Missy Modell:
Yeah, very into vasectomies right now.

Lori Edelman:
So hot right now.

Missy Modell:
So hot right now. And what you were touching upon earlier, it has religious implications, too. So it's not just foreign policy, it's not just the government, but it's seeped into religion. And especially since the US is so religiously entrenched in our psyche. Even as a Jewish person, I don't necessarily relate to those ethos and theories, but what do you think about that? How religion has played a role in women's need to have a child?

Lori Edelman:
Oh, absolutely. It's huge, and, you know, I think what I will say is that only recently have religious leaders and reproductive justice advocates come together in a really exciting, productive way to start to counter some of the messaging that does come from religion around reproduction in a way that I think is really exciting. So now you actually do see religious leaders preaching from the pulpit about choice and about being able to feed and clothe and attend to the folks that you already have created a family with. And the current Pope has done a lot to sort of remove the stigma around birth control or alternative ways of life, as they might put it. So I think we're going in a positive direction and religious leaders have to be part of that because they do control so much of how people view these issues because they are so spiritual. They do sort of reach into people's most intimate and personal opinions and experiences, so I think it's important to include religion in the picture.

Missy Modell:
And it's just interesting how abstinence is such a core message, and how do you think that relates to how women are viewed as childbearing? It Just occurred to me, but there's something very interesting about that dichotomy.

Lori Edelman:
Oh, yeah, I mean, how many of us were told in the classroom growing up that you're abstinent or you're a huge slut who's going to get pregnant and there's no in-between. And of course, the great majority of us do end up living somewhere in that in-between. So we've, we're often left to figure it out for ourselves. So even, yeah, that promise of abstinence, which data shows, does not bear out and abstinence-only education does not work, unfortunately, for our young people, it really can derail entire lives for people who don't know better, I mean, young people deserve to be informed.

Missy Modell:
And it's just so funny. I think about this all the time. I've spent so much of my childhood, my youth, I wasn't eight years old trying to have sex, but like, I did not want to get pregnant. I was scared to have sex in high school and I waited till college because I was so terrified. And then we tried to get pregnant and it's so difficult and even, and are asked like, when are you having a baby, the second you get married, or are you thinking about that? So I would love your thoughts on that as well, just this pressure, this biological clock, by a certain age, you need to have a child.

Lori Edelman:
Oh, my goodness. You know.

Missy Modell:
And do you feel that pressure?

Lori Edelman:
Oh, of course. The first thing I was thinking about when you were just sharing that was when certain actors are losing weight in the public eye and everyone's, like, making fun of them, and then you find out they have cancer and they've passed away, and everyone's like, Oh my God, I'm so sorry. I can't believe I did that. But this happens all the time with the speculation around women's bodies, and, you know, certainly, I'm a 36-year-old woman living in New York, so, you know, I think in New York you get a little bit more of a buffer on that, on some of these things. But I recently found out, having spent many years thinking that my mom was really just cool with my choices and feeling really calm and flexible about whatever I decided because she never brought up anything about my reproductive choices. And then I recently found out, like last year, that it wasn't that she was feeling so breezy about it, it was that she had assumed that I was just never going to have children because I had hit 35 and didn't have a child already. And I was so shocked because, you know, my mom is like, probably would identify as pretty progressive on these issues, and she's certainly a feminist. And she just casually mentioned how I decided not to continue the lineage, and I'm like, Mom, that's not what happened, I'm just going through a normal aging process and haven't decided yet.

Missy Modell:
And we're having children younger, and it's as if the clock stops when there are a lot of options and there are so many different ways to be a mother.

Lori Edelman:
Yes, for sure, but the pressure is real, and I think it's important to really be in touch with yourself and your partner where applicable and make the decisions that are right for you, because certainly, the social pressures are inescapable, even if you have a political framework to fall back on or you're like a hardcore feminist and you're like, I know that these messages shouldn't be reaching me, I still think it's hard to avoid them.

Missy Modell:
I have a few friends that are choosing to not have children, they're married or they're single and they don't have an interest, and they've said they've experienced a lot of judgment and stigma as if they're less feminine or not a kind person or compassionate because of that choice.

Lori Edelman:
Wow, yeah, I see it all the time. I'm not surprised. The stigma is real, but you know, what I think feminists have been really good about pointing out over the years is that it's not just stigma if you choose not to have a child. And I mean, you mentioned earlier, there's also all kinds of social costs and ramifications if you do have a child or how many children you end up having or when you have them, or if you're in the workplace as a working mother or parent. So I think it's really important to emphasize that there is no kind of right answer many times for women in terms of avoiding these judgments and stigmas. There's no way that we can be that, under a patriarchal society, doesn't invite these really unpleasant and unfair judgments. And so we have to, in my opinion, respond in two ways. We have to one, push for laws and policies that protect us as much as possible from the implications and consequences of those judgments in all kinds of spaces. And then two, go to therapy so that we can be stronger in terms of leading lives that embody the way that we want to be living.

Missy Modell:
Yes, yes. Even the women in the media, because you were saying about magazine covers and speculating when someone loses weight or speculating if a woman is pregnant, and most recently, obviously, this famous story around Jennifer Aniston coming out and how behind the scenes she had been trying to have children but was portrayed in the media as this cold, heartless woman who didn't want to be a mother.

Lori Edelman:
Absolutely, I mean, that's a great example. And I think because Jennifer Aniston is someone who has as much privilege as she has, she is that rich, white, able-bodied woman, A-list actress, she's going to get the most possible sympathy in a situation like this. And so for us to see her experience of being doubted and judged and pulled apart, it should really help us see more clearly the experiences of others who don't have that privilege or who don't have that validating story to say, well, I actually was trying the whole time. I think in a way that's like a punch line that helps vindicate her, but from a society perspective, a woman shouldn't have to prove that she was trying all along to sort of be from these kinds of judgments. We shouldn't have to conform to anyone's standards in order to be able to kind of live our life.

Missy Modell:
And then there's the other side of the coin with the men of the world trying to procreate excessively, like Elon Musk and Nick Cannon. What do you think about those gents?

Lori Edelman:
I think it's terrifying. I think it's absolutely horrifying. I mean, of course, I'm laughing along at the memes on Twitter like everybody else, but at the same time, it's actually really serious because Elon Musk in particular has made no secret of his approach to all of this, which is that he truly does see many of these interactions as part of his political ideology to populate the earth with those of his own stock, and he is a proponent of this very dangerous ideology called Longtermism. And, you know, I don't want to go on a whole rant here. I can send you some links.

Missy Modell:
But what is Longtermism? For the people inquiring.

Lori Edelman:
Yeah, I mean, this is a really dangerous idea that basically says we want to think long-term about the success of the human race. That's not the scary part. Sure, we all want to see the success of the human race, but the scary part is that they say in order to do that, we need to focus on existential risks to the human race today, such as, and this is all in their mind, underpopulation or overpopulation of certain demographics. And we also might need to sacrifice some groups in the short term in order to preserve the human race in the long term. And again, these things can sound like, okay, well, maybe that's not so horrible, but it is, when you look at it, very disturbing because they basically believe that if someone is sick or poor or in need of help today, that it probably makes sense to let them suffer in the short term in order to focus on, quote-unquote, what's really important for the human race in the long term. And this is documented. Elon has given money to these causes. He has tweeted and written about his excitement around these kinds of ideas. And part of it is the idea that, yeah, you have to repopulate with these kind of like, quote-unquote, strong-gened people, and it's very close to a kind of, you know, I have to say it, very racist ideology. It's very close to eugenics in a way. It's like instead of explicitly exterminating groups today, they're creating numbers for the people that they see as pure and good for the future.

Missy Modell:
And so women are essentially just vessels to carry these eugenic babies into the future?

Lori Edelman:
Literally, and you see that with the way Elon is very transactional in his approach, and, you know, he's impregnated people that he works with. He's impregnated many different people he's been in relationships with, in different ways and sometimes overlapping. And he's been pretty straightforward that he thinks you should find a good stock woman and impregnate her if you can as much as possible.

Missy Modell:
Yeah, absolutely horrifying.

Lori Edelman:
Yeah, I mean, especially because his children might be broke by the time he's done with Twitter. So, you know.

Missy Modell:
I mean, that's a whole other.

Lori Edelman:
People on the welfare state.

Missy Modell:
So given all this context of where we are today, I feel like there hasn't even been that much of a difference between now and the 19th century, which is kind of scary in terms of the pressure on women, aside from the fact that we can hold jobs and obviously have a lot more equities, but there's still this intense pressure. Where do you see us headed? What hope do we have for the future?

Lori Edelman:
Oh, goodness, I might not be the right person to, ask me on a better day, but.

Missy Modell:
Okay. Where are you today?

Lori Edelman:
I mean, I think that I'm like a believer, I'm a true believer in feminist movements and the waves. I don't think progress is linear, and I do think it's messy, but I believe in the clashing and the roaring of protest and of activism, so I do think we're getting somewhere. And I think technology helps, but what I think is really important for people is to see that predictably with progress comes backlash, and so I think we need to be better about anticipating that as women gain rights, actually patriarchy is going to intensify before it lets up. And so how can we sort of band together and be ready for that? Because there's a reason that we're seeing like this alarming uptick in shootings by white American men who feel like they're being displaced because they can sort of sense that something's changing, and I think part of that is an increase in the freedom of women and the freedom of people of all genders to determine their own bodily autonomy. So, you know, I do think that if we can get a little bit better about seeing that some of these really dark events and problematic events are linked to us getting to where we need to be, I think that's important, psychologically, so I would just encourage people to try to hold on to that.

Missy Modell:
And even on a personal level, letting women know that it's not their obligation to have a child on this planet. It doesn't make you whole and fulfilled. That's not the straightforward, as you said, linear path to happiness.

Lori Edelman:
Unless that's a thing, in which case we're all gone. But yeah, we all can hopefully have the ability to make that decision, and I want to be clear that reproductive justice for me is like so connected to everything. So being financially stable is a part of reproductive justice because we know it's really hard to have a child, even if you want to, if you are broke and you can't afford it or like you were saying, if the policies in your state or in your country are not supportive of bringing life into this world, or it's really expensive just to take your child to the doctor and, you know, these are realities. So yeah, it is all connected and a part of, if you really are pro-natalist and you can't be convinced otherwise, at least try to make the economy and policies better for people who can and want to be pregnant. So that's something that I feel really strongly about.

Missy Modell:
And this is a stat that I find fascinating. By not having children, you can actually help out the climate. There was a study in 2017 that found that having one fewer child saves the equivalent of 58.6 tons of CO2 per year of the parents' life. So there you go.

Lori Edelman:
Dang, interesting. I mean, we're going to have to do a whole nother podcast, Missy, on the intersections of climate and feminism because I have thoughts.

Missy Modell:
Yes.

Lori Edelman:
And we have, as feminists, historically botched this because that stat is real, and at the same time, there are a lot of people who have tried to control women's fertility for that reason for a very long. It's a very dark history, so.

Missy Modell:
Oh, interesting.

Lori Edelman:
Yes, yeah, so I like to, you know, I like to lead with the freedom angle versus, yeah.

Missy Modell:
Is that a bad stat to put out?

Lori Edelman:
Well, I would never say bad. I mean, I think it's important, but the framing is interesting for me because I think there's a presumption that we're talking about a woman in, let's say, the Western world who is choosing to do that on her own terms, and maybe her consumption overall is quite high of energy. And where that argument is typically used is against a poor woman in the global south who maybe doesn't have as much choice or control over her fertility, but also is like consuming 1/100 of the energy that someone in America, let's say, would be. So it just can get used, the way you used it was not this way, but it can be used and has a history of being used to say, well, why can't women in Africa just stop having so many children? When actually there's so much more to our carbon footprint than like how many children we have.

Missy Modell:
It's so true. Thank you for that nuance. It's all nuanced. Oh, my gosh, yes.

Lori Edelman:
I love you women.

Missy Modell:
So to wrap up, this was an amazing conversation. I like to ask the question, what are you sorry for apologizing about?

Lori Edelman:
Oh, everything. That's such a good question. Oh, my gosh, I'm sorry, I didn't prepare better. Let's see, I would say today I am going to say I am sorry for apologizing for being professionally ambitious. I'm sorry to that girl, being me.

Missy Modell:
I love it.

Lori Edelman:
What a fun question. I really like that one.

Missy Modell:
Thanks, Lori. And where can we find you?

Lori Edelman:
Oh, my goodness. Well, you already mentioned my pod, and I really hope folks will check out Cringewatchers because we have lots of these conversations there with a little bit of TB sprinkled in. And I'm also on Twitter for now @LAdelman.

Missy Modell:
Perfect! You're amazing, thank you so much.

Lori Edelman:
Thank you so much. This was so fun, I appreciate you.

Missy Modell:
I appreciate you. And more to come.

Lori Edelman:
Yay, that sounds great.

Missy Modell:
See you, Lori!

Lori Edelman:
Yes.

Missy Modell:
Cheers.

Lori Edelman:
Cheers.

Missy Modell:
Thank you for listening to Sorry for Apologizing. Brought to you by Rescripted. If you enjoyed this week's episode, be sure to check out the show notes to learn more about our amazing guests. To stay in the know, follow me @MissyModell on Instagram and TikTok or head to Rescripted.com, and don't forget to like and subscribe.

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